Become a Man of Peace with Pastor Alexander Venter

You can feel it in the air right now: families are tense, churches are divided, and it’s easier than ever to slap a label on someone and call it wisdom. We wanted to go deeper than hot takes, so we sat down with Alexander Fenter, a South African pastor and author of Doing Reconciliation, to talk about what biblical peacemaking actually looks like when life is messy and relationships are fractured.

Alexander grew up white under apartheid and describes the slow awakening from privilege to conscience, and the moment God confronted him with a hard line: “You are your brother’s keeper.” From there, we unpack shalom, the Bible’s vision of peace as wholeness and right relationship, not conflict avoidance. We talk about reconciliation with God, with ourselves, with one another, and with creation, and why the gospel changes how we see “the other,” whether that’s race, politics, class, or the person who hurt us.

If you want Christian fatherhood that’s honest, healing, and strong, this conversation will give you language and next steps.

📩 Connect with Alexander Venter:
Facebook: facebook.com/alexander.f.venter
Website: Alexandercenter.com/teachings/

Transcript

The Fatherhood Calling

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What kind of father do you want to be? What kind of man do you want to become for your family and for yourself? If you've ever wondered how to step into the fullness of your role as a father, husband, and man of God, then you're in the right place. Here at the Father Difference, our mission is to inspire and equip men to be the best fathers they can be. It's a powerful mission. And today, we're going to explore exactly how you can take steps toward that calling. Whether you're a father, a son, a husband, grandfather, single dad, stepfather, or just looking to grow, I believe God has something powerful for you in today's message. Whether you're tuning in live or watching this later, we are so excited to have you here. If this is what you're looking for, then subscribe so you can tune in each week to the Father Difference Live. You can sign up below. And now your host, a husband, father, grandfather, author, and former NFL player, Pastor Ed McGlassen.

Why Peace Belongs In Families

SPEAKER_06 1:11

Well, welcome. I'm your host, Ed Tany McGlassen. And today, I can't believe it, I got to hear this amazing communicator of God's Word. Many, many years in ministry, he's actually a year older than me. So I'm the younger one of the group. And right next to me is Alexander Fentner. Did I say that right?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

That's correct.

SPEAKER_06 1:40

And from South Africa, who's actually done a number of things. And one of the things I want to talk about today, because there's you know, there's so many things, Alexander, that we have that are broken in families. And and so, you know, p we also have all of these incredible labels that you know people can start labeling their spouse with so they can't be married to them because they're you know irreparably harmed. They're a narcissist or they're this or they're that, where bitterness kind of takes root. And a big part of what we do is we help people, you know, re-establish the incredible gift of of forgiveness. But I've actually added something after listening to my brother here, and that is learning how to bring the peace of God, being a man or a woman of peace, and the power of that peace to your family, peace to your extended family, peace to your enemies, peace to people who don't look like you, people who vote differently than you. So, all that I put a a big uh a big thing on my brother here. Why don't you welcome today to the Father Different podcast, Alexander Vendner? Welcome, Alexander.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 3:12

Well, talk a little bit. I I've been reading your book. Yeah, just really powerful book, but I listened to your sermon. My wife listened to it, she wasn't feeling well. And it just was it was so amazingly challenging for all of us and and so important for right now where the Church of Jesus is and where the world is today with all the stuff that's going on. So t tell us a little bit about your story and and how you discovered how to love your brother who is different than you.

Growing Up Under Apartheid

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah. Okay. No, thank you. Uh we do we we live in a very pain-filled world that is deeply polarized with a lot of well, hatred even. So to be a person of peace and to bring peace is absolutely critical n you know, not only for society, but actually for sanity, for human for human normality, and in fact for human flourishing. So my story, it goes back to S South Africa. I was born in the apartheid days, under apartheid, as a white person.

SPEAKER_06 4:28

And as I would you explain a little bit what apartheid means to people that maybe have heard that, but because we have a lot of young people who are gonna listen to this and they go, aparte, what the heck is that? Is that a parte?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

A parte Yeah, not apartheid. No, so so um back in South Africa I was born 1955, and in those days the government was the white Afrikaans government where the black person didn't have the vote. And they believed that they were a Christian nation and a Christian government, and but they interpreted the Bible in a way where the white person was like called of God as a Christian to civilize the poor black people. But the way the way it panned out through the policy of apartheid, apartheid simply means separation to keep people separate, because they believed from the Old Testament that uh the sons of Ham were the black people, the Africans who had to serve the sons of Japheth and Shem, which were the white people. So it was really a misinterpretation of the Bible, and apartheid was a system of white supremacy that oppressed black people. And I was born into those days, and I as I grew up as a young person, I became conscious and aware that my being a white person, I didn't ask God to be born with a white skin, but being born with a white skin, I was born on the side of privilege and power, and it was a slow but sh but progressive awakening of consciousness and also conscience to privilege and power and the pain of the black person in our country, and uh that then led to me becoming a follower of Jesus, a Christian, when I was at the age of thirteen.

SPEAKER_06 6:21

And wh where did that happen? At church or all right.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

So, what happened is I was at at school and I w came from an unchurched home, but a friend of mine at school, a classmate, in fact, began to talk to me about Jesus. And I was literally so ignorant that when he spoke about Jesus Christ, I thought it was his first name and his last name. Like Alexander Fenter, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

You're the perfect candidate.

Following Jesus Into Peacemaking

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So only later I discovered that Jesus was his first name, and Christ, of course, is King means means king. And then slowly but surely I understood the message of Jesus that he loved me and he came to earth to die for me, to save me. And I gave my life to Jesus. And when I I I this this friend of mine at school actually led me in a prayer of commitment to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior. And then my consciousness became open and awakened to the pain of people that were different to me. And in South Africa, I don't I'm not sure if you if younger listeners may not know this, but we had the Racial Classification Act, where you had the black classific people classified, then Asian Indian people, we have a large Asian Indian population and white people, and in between the the intermarried were classified colored people, and it was a racial classification on its own. You had black, colored, Indian, and white, and the white was top of the pile, and then the Indians benefited probably the most, and then the colored were after them, and but the worst on the bottom were people who were classified Africans, black people. And yeah, it was just it was just very painful. And when I began to discover the reality of our country and the segregation and the hierarchical structure of privilege and power, I then wanted to be a person of peace, because I was following the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ. I mean that phrase comes from Isaiah, the Prince of Peace. And so to intervene and make peace, because Jesus taught, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. I love that. Yeah, yeah. And for me, as the way I understood it, that simply means if I'm a child of God, it means they reckon people recognize me as God's child or God's son, because I'm living out the nature of my father. And God's nature is to to make peace. Not to keep the peace by sweeping things under the carpet and pretending everything's okay.

SPEAKER_06 9:12

But actually, that's just water under the bridge. We have that thing here, right? Yeah, water under the bridge. It's water under bridge. Well, water under the bridge is why you got a bridge.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No, that's that's right. So to intervene in situations of put of polarity, tension, dispute, conflict takes courage. But you intervene for the sake of the people to help them to find peace and remove what has separated them. So reconciliation or peacemaking simply means that it implies that you were together, but you separate because of ideology, because of economic disparity, because of relational breakdown, because of perceptions of labels over people. And you intervene to remove that which has separated people and to reconcile them to make peace and restore relationship. And that's what I try to do in in South Africa under apartheid.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

Wow. You know, it's what's fascinating. I was sitting there and Sunday, I was listening to you, and the thing that that hit me is that you know, the the truth about you know, Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:32

And if you're gonna make war, you ride a horse.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 10:37

But if you want to bring peace, you ride a donkey.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

That's right.

Shalom And Four Reconciliations

SPEAKER_06 10:41

And so Jesus, which you're riding in, you know, in that moment to to bring shalom, which is healing, right? It's peace, it's a s it's a supernatural endowment of God on your life where you begin to see yourself through his word.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:02

Because of what accusation is is broken over from the devil, and you st your your your identity of who you are is impossible to discover unless you have shalom on your life.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

That's right. No, absolutely, absolutely. So you and you're touching on a very important point, is that our English word peace, and blessed are the peacemakers or reconcilers. But that word peace in Hebrew is shalom, which is a very powerful idea from the Hebrew understanding. And it's the opposite of chaos and disorder. It's God's order, God's well-being, God's wholeness, God's God's prosperity, in fact. So to be a peacemaker is to bring God's order to disorder and chaos. And God's order brings healing, wholeness, well-being, prosperity, where people flourish once again, because they're in right relationship, restored relationship, right relationship with God, right relationship with ourselves, right relationship with each other as human beings, and then that is shalom. So it's a very powerful word, shalom.

SPEAKER_06 12:17

And it's and it's even you mentioned this in your book, it's right relationship with creation.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, absolutely. I left that one out.

SPEAKER_06 12:25

Yeah, you know, if you it's true. You know, it's like you should take care of the environment.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 12:31

Right? You know, you care about the this the fish and the birds and the you care about it all because it's all part of God's creation.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

No, absolutely. So specifically, there are four levels of peacemaking or reconciliation, and God always takes the initiative to come to us, we who are and were his enemies because of human rebellion against God and our sin. God comes to us and crosses the great divide from heaven to earth, and it's reconciliation with God, reconciliation with self, because internally we are alienated because of our guilt and our shame. And we reject ourselves and don't like ourselves. But then also reconciliation with one another, and then reconciliation with creation itself, because we were created to be carers and stewards of God's beautiful creation. And Ed, just being in your studio, and I see all the paintings around me of the mountains and the beauty of nature, and how we human beings in many ways are exploiting and destroying creation. So it's a four-level or four-dimensional process of reconciliation to which we are called as followers of Jesus, yes, and to really make a difference in this world.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

That's so good. The thing is, Alexander, I am I don't hear this much. We don't we don't hear this much because most people think of peace as you know, keep the peace. And but there there's something just so profound because the peace of God is nothing like an a worldly peace.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

Right? 'Cause it it has it has the Spirit who you know, the Holy Spirit who m to made all this stuff. As Jesus spoke those words. I just love that scripture that he holds the the whole creation really by the word of his power.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 14:47

Right. You know, this imagine these mountains would all be laid low if Jesus ever went, took back what he said. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 14:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 14:57

Because when he uh that mountain behind you is Minaret Peak and Mammoth, and it at some moment Jesus went Minaret Lakes.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

And there it was.

SPEAKER_06 15:12

And there it was. And we I I wonder the things uh my father was a test pilot in the Navy, that's his hat up in the other part of the studio there, and he was killed just before I was born.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 15:25

And so I I wear his dog tags, and I c I carry this legacy because he was a man of peace. He before he died, he cr he connected to Jesus, walked with him. But he never got to see his son until he went to heaven.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Amazing.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

And so so honoring. So talk a little bit about how what's the process for someone, because we're we're made to be incarnational beings, right? Yeah. What we receive, we can do. That's why fathers who try to get their children, for instance, to be good or to live a certain way, when they themselves aren't living out of that for themselves.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 16:15

Is uh it's no wonder they don't listen. I coach a lot of dads all the time and they're why won't my son listen to me? I go, Well, number one, are you talking to him in that voice? Number two, is that the way you talk to yourself when you blow it?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:34

What would what would change if you really accepted that God had made you to be an incarnational model of what it looks like to be a godly man and a godly father, and you embrace that, you receive that shalom in your life, you receive that peace, and you walked as that father. You know what would happen to the Xboxes that your kids play? They put them down when daddy's there. Because there's something incredibly powerful about the voice of a dad. And when it comes out of a person who's broken and who's been forgiven, who's so grateful to God for what he's done, and then he realizes that it's his job to bring peace in the family.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 17:28

That changed my story.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_06 17:31

That's wonderful. So talk a little bit about how to receive this for those guys and gals that are watching. How how did how did you get this so deeply in you in South Africa? You got saved as a younger man. Yeah. You lived in a polarized place where black people weren't really seen as people. Right? And white people had great privilege. And you know it's interesting, s some people in America think that slavery began on the boat, you know, in the United States of America. It's always been in in in the world from uh because you you make this incredibly brilliant point about what happened to Adam and Eve when they when they sinned against God. They only had one rule. I mean they they didn't have like Ten Commandments, they didn't have the the old Bible, they had one rule. Talk a little bit about how how we got broken.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah. Okay, so it what you're referring to that I uh explained on Sunday morning at church is that when God created, in fact, creation, he created a garden of delight of beauty within creation, and in there he created Adam and Eve within as is his image to image God to creation, to be God's representative to creation. But God said, If you trust me and walk with walk with me, you will come to know everything, but don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And God was that was a test of relational trust and integrity as opposed to the temptation of evil to reach out for that which we decide will make us wise over against God's way of obedient faith and relational integrity. So Adam and Eve reached out and ate the forbidden fruit to actually be enlightened to be like God. And that's what separated immediately God and Adam and Eve, God and humanity. And what happened is they immediately became conscious that they were naked, because that is internal guilt and shame. They were cut off from God, they withdrew and hid themselves, then they created these clothing out of fig leaves or whatever to justify.

SPEAKER_06 20:12

Sounds like they were in Fiji.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Maybe in Fiji, who knows? But it was like to justify and cover up their guilt and shame and be presentable to God and one another through posturing with their own efforts or works of righteousness. But God came looking for them in the garden. And when God found he began with Adam, he said, Adam, why did you eat of the that forbidden fruit? And he said, It wasn't me. It was the woman that you made who made me eat. And immediately there is separation between the male and the female, human being and human being, by by blame, you know, blaming her and projecting onto her the cause of his problems. And there is alienation immediately. And and when the Lord said to Eve, Why did you eat of the forbidden fruit? And she said, It wasn't me, it was the serpent, the snake that you made that made me eat. Yeah, not my fault. Not my fault. And there too is the symbolic separation between humanity and creation, that alienation that took place. And it's all guilt, blame shifting, projection, it's not my fault. And but God, of course, provided for them, and this is the miracle of the garden. God said, I will kill lambs or animals who are completely innocent, and uh by the shedding of blood I'll take their coverings, you take off all your fig leaves or whatever you have, and I will cover you with my provision of forgiveness, that you will be considered forgiven and righteous in my eyes through the shedding of blood. And right in the garden, God promised that. That the the one born of the woman will destroy the serpent, will crush his head, and will provide the shedding of blood for the covering of sin so that there may be reconciliation with God, with ourselves, with each other, and also with creation. So that's the the brief story.

SPEAKER_06 22:17

Yeah, and you know what's interesting in that story that I love is that Adam was the typical husband.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:24

Because God spoke to him first, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 22:27

And so he goes back to Eve and goes, You know that tree? You can't even touch it.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 22:34

Now God never said you can't touch it. If you tell a woman she can't touch something, she's gonna be extra curious.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 22:45

And so, you know, you know, Adam just right from the the beginning. And so and so when when someone is in that kind of state, the the answer then for them to be restored to shalom is what? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, the answer is faith. And faith implies a change of thinking, a change of consciousness, to see the alternative other and to trust and believe and turn. Because if we don't turn to God and trust God, we will not receive the forgiveness, we will not receive the shalom that restores relationship. So our guilt and our shame is removed as we open up our minds to God's alternative and put our trust in what God offers us. Because it's ultimately only God who brings shalom. That's right. We can't create it, we can't manufacture it, we can't pretend to have it if it's not there. And it's comes from God through God's way of giving us salvation and restoring relationship that we call reconciliation or peacemaking. But it does require change your thinking, open your mind to what God is doing, and trust Him by turning to Him and inviting Him into your situation. No matter what the situation is, God can make peace and bring shalom if you believe.

SPEAKER_06 24:20

Yeah, that's it's so good. And the cool thing about belief, it's actually a gift from God.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 24:28

We're not we're not saved because we get, oh, I got this great idea, I'm gonna be saved now. For us to even believe that, God's got to give us the gift of grace. That's true not of l of your works, you know, Ephesians says, but it's faith is the gift of God. Yes. And so what a deal. We blow it because our greatest of grandfathers blew it. We're born in the sin, we've got no hope to be safe. We try to be good, we break every one of those New Year's resolutions. Yes. And, you know, and and isn't it interesting, for instance, when you start losing weight and getting in shape, it's amazing how you see fat people everywhere walking around. We're so quick to want to have some edge of you know, a separation or God sees me, you know, I'm good. I'm you know, and that Jesus said, you know, there uh Paul writes there's no good man, not even one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 25:32

And so we've got to receive this grace. So not only are we incapable of saving ourselves, you're saying we we need faith. And the only way we can get faith is when we allow our hearts to be turned by Him. He gives us the gift of faith. We then say, Father, forgive me for I have sinned. The resurrection power of Jesus comes in, transforms us, and we become a brand new creation.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Absolutely. Absolutely. What a deal. What a deal.

SPEAKER_06 26:06

And we and the only thing we can do, we can only do one thing. It's kind of one of the the place in me that I try to nurture is that I can only go as far as I'm willing to receive from him.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, that's that's wonderful. Right.

SPEAKER_06 26:21

You know, Jesus modeled it. The Son of Man can do nothing on his own, but only what He sees his Father doing and says what his father's saying, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 26:31

So Jesus came not to be a superstar.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:36

Jesus came to model what it's like to live a life like a son to a father who loves him.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 26:45

And so he's only doing what the father's doing. So Jesus modeled receiving. He didn't model, you know, I'm the six million dollar hero. Right? You know, uh you know, he's he modeled what it's alike for you and I to to be a man.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 27:09

For a gal to to be a godly beloved daughter.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:15

And boy, that that took that took a lot of angst out of my heart when I could lay down that competitive place in me that was so nurtured as a professional footballer.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 27:30

And now learn to do this.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:32

Because on the football field, when you're playing against me and Joe Green, probably wouldn't mean anything to you. But, you know, Pittsburgh Steel are just an incredible football player. You gotta be on your A game, or he's gonna run over you and then he's gonna back up. It's gonna be an ugly day. Right. You guys have rugby and right and without real helmets. And all of the noses of the rugby guys are all left or right. Their eyes were always slanted a little bit. I love the uh It's brutal. Oh, it's brutal. I love the all blacks. I think they're just uh amazing rugby team.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

The New Zealander team, all blacks, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_06 28:14

Oh my god, they're just you know get some in the NFL. Okay, so you know, people are listening to this and they're saying, okay, but I got we got serious trauma in our family in my life. How do and and also there's people around me that I've kind of labeled. Talk a little bit about how labeling people you think you're protecting your heart, yeah, right, but it makes you superior and you look down at them, right? Because of whatever that label is. So talk a little bit about because that came out of the garden then, right? That you know, labeling people.

Labels That Dehumanise People

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Absolutely, yeah. So I mean, the so-called war of the sexes, the the the pain and the competition between man and woman and the oppression, where th the the curse that came upon Eve in Genesis chapter three was that hierarchical authority would lead to oppression as opposed to mutuality. When God created Adam and Eve, he gave them mutually authority to stewer the earth. But that was inverted and led to a lot of pain and brokenness, and out of that comes all the labeling in terms of rich, poor, black, white, educated, uneducated, and the tendency is we begin to relate through ah, she's a feminist, oh he's a liberal, oh this, ah that. And if we can see people by giving them a label that's basically stereotypical of a group, we can control them and they don't intimidate us anymore. And that is deeply, profoundly painful for the recipient who is related to through a label. So in South Africa growing up white, we had all these labels before us visibly before our eyes, with signs over government buildings, over bathroom facilities, over park benches, whites and non whites. And so everyone who was not a white European was labeled and defined as the negative image of the positive. So the white was the measure, the superior, and non-whites were colors, Indians, black people who were defined as the negative of the positive. And you know, psychoemotionally, even spiritually, it's a it's it's so damaging to your sense of self with inferiority, and that we need to transcend that or repent, change our thinking, repent from it, turn to God, and with God's love transcend that because God doesn't label us. If He identifies us, we are His children whom He loves. And that's what Paul says that when you come to know Jesus and you become a follower of Jesus and you are immersed or baptized into Christ, there is therefore now no longer a Jew or Gentile, slave nor free, master nor servant, rich or poor, male or female, but we've become one new humanity in Christ. We receive a new identity as God's child that heals and transforms me and frees me from the power of previous labels that identified me. And so we live a journey of renewing of the mind to treat people as the very image of God, no matter if they are rich or poor, black or white, male or female, if they are Hispanic or Asian, if they are Democrat or Republican. We every human being is made in God's image. And God loves them uniquely for who they are, and to follow Jesus means you transcend these labels and you no longer relate to people through labels, stereotypes, and generalizations. But you treat them with dignity and respect as a human being made in the image of God.

Seeing Ted Kennedy Past Labels

SPEAKER_06 32:35

Yeah, it's just so rich. If you guys are watching this, it's and you just tuned in. It's a father different podcasts, and we're with Alexander Fentner today from South Africa. And just so you know, you're you're talking about this. I I had this thing happen to me years ago. I started to, you know, God gives me dreams, and I'll dream about people that I'm gonna meet. And I had a dream about Ted Kennedy, and who was a senator and who's you know pretty much demonized by his past. And so anyway, I'm flying from Boston to Washington. There's only one seat on the plane, and they the the the captain comes on and says, We have one more passenger and two Secret Service agents that are coming on. Please remain in your seat, and down the aisle comes Ted Kennedy and sits right next to me.

unknown 33:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 33:43

And I'm sitting, we're having this great conversation, but everybody's listening, and I want to give them this thing that God gave me. But if I said it out loud, I knew it was gonna be in the papers. And so anyway, we land and he looks over at me and he goes, Gosh, man, I gotta pee. You gotta pee? I go, Yes, I do. And so they say the captain says, Don't leave until the senator and his team leave, and up we go off the plane. Everybody thought I was with him. We go into the bathroom, we're standing there at the you know, the urinals, and and I said, The Lord gave me a word for you uh many years ago in a dream, and I'd like to share it with you. He looks at me and goes, Wow, can I finish peeing first? I was so excited. A practical man. Yeah, you're a practical man. So we go, we you know, do our business and we're washing our hands, and he goes, Okay, so which you're w who are you? And so I you know, share a little bit more about myself.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:51

And I said, I had a dream about you and your wife. And the Lord showed me that you both were gonna have to face very soon a serious some serious disease and things in your bodies. But the Lord wants me to give you a word from him and this is what it is, Senator Kennedy. Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength, they'll man up with wings like eagles, or run and not be weary, and they'll walk and not faint. And he says, Say that again, Isaiah 40, 31. He says, Tell me your name again. And he grabs my hands and I said, Can I pray for you? And he says, Please.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 35:35

And I laid hands on him and asked God to bring his healing power in his presence. And I said, Let me tell you what God told me. He said, He's gonna reveal yourself himself to you in such a profound way in these next months. He's gonna write some things inside of your heart of the way you talk to yourself and all the shame that you've had to carry because of your family and because of all these other things.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 36:03

Jesus wants all of that. And he hugs me.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Amazing.

SPEAKER_06 36:09

And then he leaves. And my best friend, Brian Holloway, who knows the Kennedys wealth, calls me and says he sort of wanted to get word to you. He says, I will never forget that encounter, that prayer.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 36:24

Or that scripture. You just tell him that uh that that was incredible for me.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:30

And three months later they found that he had a serious case of colon cancer.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 36:35

Which he and his wife got sick as well. She recovered, but he didn't recover.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 36:42

But God showed me something. Yeah, there's I remember you were mentioning it. As he was walking in the plane, I saw like all my labels that were in me. Democrat. You know, Chap Aquitic, where his you know he got out of a car and a little a girl died.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

I remember that story.

SPEAKER_06 37:07

All of that stuff that Kennedy named, all of that there. And it's like when we see labels that are in front of us, like in front of my face, we we have to look past the labels, but we can't until we let God let us just see the boy.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_06 37:28

The girl.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 37:29

The woman.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:31

The man. And that's by the way, only possible when you have caught him looking at you.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 37:41

And he doesn't go, oh, sinner. Oh, when are you gonna get her right? Yeah, he doesn't label us like that. He looked at you, but he gives you not a label but an identity, and he says, You're my beloved son.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:58

You're my beloved daughter.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

No, it's amazing. It reminds me of that text that Paul says in Romans 5 that while we were yet enemies, God sent his son, and he was crucified to reconcile us back to God. If if God related to us through the lens or prism, we're his enemies, he would treat us very differently. But Jesus said, Love your enemies, love even your enemies. Love those who are different to you, love those who who irritate you.

SPEAKER_06 38:33

And do good to them, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

And do good to them and pray for them and bless those who curse you. Oh I mean, that is so countercultural, but that's what it means to follow Jesus.

SPEAKER_06 38:43

Yeah. That is so uh I you you told this uh story at church, but uh tell us uh that story about going, you know, being really confronted as a young minister with just that there's a your part of your heart that's been so shaped by your your family and the white culture of the church or the or the in in a real way and a lot of people might not know this, but you actually describe the church there as being this you know, the we want to become a Christian nation. Yes that becomes political, it gets really wicked.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:30

But talk about what happened in your heart with these two were they uh seminary students that they took you to Sowutu or Yeah, Soweto. Soweto.

Soweto And Becoming My Brother’s Keeper

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Yeah. So thank you, Ed. What Ed is referring to, excuse me, is that when I became a follower of Jesus, interestingly enough, the guy that spoke to me about Jesus first asked me the question, are you a Christian? And I was like almost semi-offended. I said, Of course I'm a Christian. I'm I'm white, you know. I'm I'm a European, of course I'm a South African, of course I'm a Christian. And in my mind, I was raised to believe because you're white and you're South African, we're in a Christian nation governed by a Christian government that caught the Afrikaans government, nationalist party, had Christian nationalism as their theology that undergirded. So your sense of identity was if I'm white, if I'm South African, of course I'm a Christian. Blacks are not Christians, we've got to get them saved. So that was the beginning of the journey. But then what Ed is referring to is I was lecturing as a young pastor when I f when I became a pastor in a part I was lecturing part-time in a Bible school, and it was quite unique in 1984 or 83 rather. There were four black students and about 25 to 30 white students, and there was different in apartheid that there actually were four black students. And I was teaching on the ethics of the kingdom of God, and uh there was a vote coming up that the government had put to the white electorate, was the black man didn't have the vote, neither the Indians, neither the colors, only whites had the vote. And he was wanting the president was wanting to do like a reform program to bring colored and Indians into a vote of a tricameral parliament, but leave blacks out. And when I was lecturing, I mentioned this, and I said, you know, it's unethical, it's unjust to bring in colors and Indians and leave the blacks out. Give everyone the vote. And one young black man raised his hand. And in those days my nickname was Bushy Fenter because my hair was always long. Bushy? Yeah, bushy. It was a bit bushy.

SPEAKER_06 41:52

So he raised his hand. You must have met this girl named Jill, and she gave you a better haircut.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, absolutely. But uh, this this young black man from Soweta raised his hand and said, Mr. Bushy Fenter, the way you're talking to your white compatriots is like patronizing us blacks. Are you another typical English liberal talking politically correct language, but still secretly you're a racist? And then, oh, I tell you, my eyes went big. And he said, he looked at me, he said, Have you ever been into Soweto? And and and that was massively significant because Johannesburg was founded on the gold rush in 1886 by white people, and black people came to help dig out the gold for our white lifestyles and white economy, and the black labor pool became southwestern townships, Soweto. And Soweto was a massive black city of three million black people. Johannesburg was about one and a half million white people at the time that I went into Soweto. So I'd never been into this segregated black city, which was a city of poverty, oppression, pain, black anger against the white city, and you even had to get a government permit. If I was a white person going into the black city of Soweto, I had to get a permit, and if black people came into the white city, they had to have a permit. So Mokete, that was his name, this the Sutu man, is he Sutuan, a black African, he said, Have you ever been into Soweto? And I said, Never in my life. He said, Well then you take me off the lectures into Soweto. So we drove, and I mean I was pretty nervous to be honest. I mean, we drove deep into Soweto, but and and you know, the the the political climate at that time was highly emotive, with a lot of protests that led to the army you know putting down protests violently and blacks dying. At the hands of the South African police and defense force, which were of course all white people, all white soldiers. So it was very politicized. But Moketti used to, he sat in the car next to me and he smiled. He said, As long as I'm in the car with you, you're safe. If they see a black man in the then they think, okay, he's he's probably a Catholic priest. But if you're on your but if you're on your own in the car, then then it's difficult. But what happened is I went to where he was staying. It's a very small house, in Mama Marks' house. We called her Mama Marks, and Mokete had a little room there, and he called all his buddies from around, and there they had for the first time a white man on their turf, on their terms, and they began to grill me. They said, Do you support the release Mandela campaign? Did you go to the White Army call-up and serve in the White Army? If you did, we're gonna skip the border and join the Liberation Army. I mean, it was brutal, all the questions. And what happened is at the end, when I drove out of Soweto, I just broke down on the highway going back to Johannesburg, and I just wept and wept. And I really felt the Lord say to me, Bushy, you are your brother's keeper. And I remember the story of Cain and Abel, where Cain killed Abel, and God came to confront Cain and said, His blood is on your hands. And I I actually felt, I said to the Lord, Lord, don't get political on me. You of all people should know you mustn't mix religion and politics. How can you say to me the blood of my black brother is on my hands? Am I responsible for apartheid? Am I responsible for this whole system of white supremacy in the name of Christian nationalism that oppresses the black man? But I had a kind of a initially a little argument, but then I said, Okay, God, if you call me my brother's keeper, and I felt God saying to me, Bushy, go and find your brother. Go and find your brother, go find him and reconcile. Go to the black man with a basin of water, stripped of your privilege and power, coming vulnerable and naked on Ben on bent knee to wash his feet, and to say, I don't presume anything. I just want to hear your story and wash your feet with the pain that's built up within you, the anger because of all the injustice and oppression. So that was a massive turning point in my life. And I said, I sat there on the highway in the emergency lane because I was just weeping, and I said, Okay, God, I will live out a life of repentance and reconciliation to cross the divides in our society where there's walls of hatred in the cross of Christ, all walls of hostility have been torn down. And Jesus made the two, Jew and Gentile, one new humanity, male and female, rich and poor, black and white, Hispanic and Asian. We're all become one in Christ, and I'll live out a life of repentance and reconciliation. So that was the one massive catalytic encounter that I had in Soweto, and from then on, that was 1983. For twelve years, 1983, it really got going in 1984 to 1996. I went into Soweto every week bringing more and more white people from the Vineyard Church in Johannesburg. And we went through army roadblocks because there were checkpoints all around Soweto. It was completely enclosed by army checkpoints. And we had to go through the checkpoints to have worship and meet with black people in Soweto. In fact, the special branch, which I guess would be the equivalent of perhaps the FBI, maybe, but they interrogated me twice. They had built up a file on me because no white person going into Soweto without a permit. I refused to get a government permit because I did conscientious objection. My explanation at the roadblock was Jesus wants me to go and reconcile with my black brother and sister. And I'm not going to get the government's permission to do that. I'm coming in to love them because I need to repent of my white racism. And uh so the special branch investigated me twice. I had two interrogations, and I just told them the story of Jesus. That I'm not here on a political ticket, I'm here in obedience to Jesus and his kingdom of reconciliation that loves all people. So that's that's a bit of the story, Ed.

Peace At Home Through Hard Talks

SPEAKER_06 48:42

Gosh, it's so so good. Yeah, no, it's it's so fresh becoming a man of peace. So as we kind of tie this together, talk a little bit about how to bring peace number one between husband and wife, and then dads and children because we have I don't know if it's the same as South Africa, but we you know the church in in America has really swallowed the psychology pill. And and there's numbers of people that are communicating and and preaching and but they're not preaching the gospel as much as they're preaching you know, protection for people and creating boundaries around yourself. And there's actually a huge swath of of parents. I I deal with some of them. I have some dear friends that they found that it's just it's a travesty, and and their grandparents have been separated from their children because of hurt and bitterness.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Yeah, I understood.

SPEAKER_06 49:56

And they're using the grandchildren as pawns to punish the parents.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 50:01

And it's it's happening all over our country. And I don't know if it's the same in in Africa or not. It's like young people have a better idea. I'm gonna remove conflict, I don't want my children to become uh Christians, you know, I want to have them to have their own life, and so you keep talking to them about Jesus, and so they're there's just a war against that. Speak into that for some of these parents that and grandparents who uh what are some things they can do to bring healing?

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Okay, no. That's very important and key question. So I always think of the verse in the Bible that really touched me in those early days when I went into Soweto from Hebrews, the book of Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 14, it says, make every effort to live at peace with all people. And the word there peace is against Shalom. Make every effort to have ordered right relationships, where there is wrong relationship or relational breakdown or relational tension or relational disagreement. Make every effort to go and intervene and talk it through and make peace. Because peacekeeping, to keep the peace is we sweep stuff under the carpet. Yes, because it's like almost with some people in relationships, it's like a landmine. Don't go there, don't put your foot there, it's gonna blow up. The guy's gonna just explode. But what we're talking about here, Ed, is this relational learning to relate with transparency and honesty, so that we don't live with unresolved stuff and go to sleep at night with anger still inside of us because of that conversation in the day, or because of the of that thing that happened. I mean, as Paul says in Ephesians, he says, be angry, but do not sin. And what he's saying is don't ventilate or explode your anger. You feel anger, and anger is a God-given emotion, in fact, to tell you something's gone wrong. My wife or my husband or this person has said this in a way that's actually upset me. So if you have anger, it tells you something's happened here that you need to address. So before you go to sleep, address it by saying, Can we talk this through? Because I'm I'm not happy, I'm not comfortable with what happened. And so intervening to talk and resolve conflict is to keep integrity of relationship where we walk in the light with each other, and we don't allow the progressive accumulation of unresolved stuff to eventually close you down emotionally, to separate you psychologically. Right. And of course, the end result is divorce. And I mean, we know in the Christian church the divorce rate is as high as it is out there in society. And more and more young couples don't get married, they just live together and sleep together. It's because of the incredible pain in broken relationships.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

And we've seen it right there in our own home.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Yeah, absolutely. And so one of them the biggest sources of sickness and psychological pain and mental illness health is because of broken relationships that that go right back to the home. So I was raised in a home with uh an angry father. My father was a very angry man and a deep, a deep African racist. And I had to, as I grew up, come to terms with the anger in me that came from my father in human relationships. Sometimes I responded to situations that was completely disproportionate with the explosion of anger out that came out of me that was not related to here, that was accumulated anger in here. And then I realized, where does this come from? Why am I so angry? And I realized it's my father that's passed it on. So I had to go on a journey talking to my dad as I became an adult and say, Dad, can we talk about what happened when you were young? How did your father raise you? And hearing, I mean, hearing the stories of my dad, how he was raised, just broke my heart. Because what happened there went into him and came out in me. And if I don't change and reconcile with my dad and get this anger out of me and heal this relationship with my dad, I'm gonna pass it on to my son and on to my daughter. So I very intentionally sought to uh do storytelling with my dad and come to understanding my dad in new ways. And we were reconciled and healed in many ways from many years of an alienated, painful relationship. And I mean, my son today, who's 36, and my daughter who's 35, if one talks to them, hopefully they would say that my dad actually loved us. We have good relationship with my dad, and it comes out through the generations. So unresolved broken relationships where you don't address issues, but you rather just put them aside, that leads to tremendous ill health, to chaos. You when he shalom with h so husbands and wives, of course, before you sleep, don't go to bed and go to sleep ever without resolving stuff.

SPEAKER_06 55:41

Don't let the sun go down on your anger. That's right. On your wrath, yeah. The next day there'll be a brick there called I hate you. That's true. And then that if you do that enough time, you got a wall. It becomes a wall. And then you have these catapults and you're shooting fireballs at one another over. You know, I I learned this question uh first with my children and then with my wife that's been so amazing. And that's when I when I s when I feel this from them I know it's because I've done something.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

I understand, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:21

Right? And so I remember the first time I asked this, I said, guys, I need I took all my children around because they were they were doing you guys have passive aggressive in in South Africa. So they're they're they're saying something to hurt that other person, but they're going, just kidding. And so I realized I taught them this. It's kind of locker room stuff that I'd learned. And I said, God, I I don't know how to get them to forgive one another. And as I'm walking into the the den the Lord just reminds me, you know, it's that that voice inside of you, not the audible on the outside voice, the the audible that shakes your bones. He's it's he says, Well, you've never taught them how. And I'm just I start to think about all my conversations with my children and even my wife. It was always, I can't believe you did this. Yes. What's wrong with you? Did you take your brain with you when you went out? You know, it's like you know crushing them, right? And so I I looked and at, you know, I I I called a team meeting.

unknown 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:42

All right, team meeting. And my oldest thing, oh great, somebody's getting their ass kicked today. And they're talking about their pastor dad, okay? Broken pastor dad.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Team meeting.

SPEAKER_06 57:56

Team meeting. And so they're waiting for me to give a sermon so they can pull out a nickel and give me an offering. So, you know, it's just that was the motto. I would try to teach them the truth of the scripture, but I didn't model what I was teaching them. And so I asked my kids, I said, you know, there's probably a a number of things, or maybe a lot of things I've done to hurt you. Will you tell me what they are so I can ask for forgiveness?

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Well, that's right.

SPEAKER_06 58:28

My daughters are both are weeping. My oldest and start crying. They go, Really? And they just laid into me and told me about all the stuff that hurt them, and and whatever it was, I said, Will you forgive me for that? It's like for doesn't forgiveness need to be a transaction, right? Where they share, you listen, you own it, and you make it right. Apologize for it. And so that peace can come. Yep. Versus, oh, I'm sorry, which I think means I don't I'm feeling comfortable that I'm convicted, so I'm gonna say I'm sorry, so you leave me alone. Okay? I'm having a bad day. That's why I was mean to you, no?

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:20

And see, when you own your sin by asking them to tell you the uh what the hurt was, and then you say, Will you forgive me? I didn't realize as I was we had about an hour hugging and sharing time.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

Wow, amazing.

SPEAKER_06 59:38

It was and I got my kids' hearts back. If you don't have your children's hearts, they don't follow you.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Oh, that's reconciled.

SPEAKER_06 59:46

You can be the greatest evangelist in the world. You can do everything. But if you don't have their heart, they're going. I don't know, I don't know if they do this in South Africa, but in Southern California, they go, whatever. You know, it's like I hate that. Whatever. And it's like that means they switched off. I don't I'm switched off. I'm switched off. And as I'm walking back to my study where we are right here.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:12

I just I I just encountered the the the peace of God. It it hit our family.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:20

And I realized that that w we're as fathers should be the first ones who lay a foundation of forgiveness so that peace can come as a foundation of our family.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

Absolutely. No, you no Radan. I mean that story that you've just shared, I had a similar experience with our kids where there were times where I had I had to I invited and had to listen to honest feedback as to how they had experienced me in certain interactions. And suddenly I saw myself differently through their eyes. And of course, then one all one can do is sincerely and genuinely apologize and seek to remove the emotional pain and hurt that's been caused and restore that relational integrity so that yeah, that that they don't just dismiss you and become cynical about you. I mean, that's how we live with a lot of unresolved stuff in relationships that causes enormous pain. That's right. But maybe one last story from my side, if if I may add. But uh parents and the you speak about incarnational integrity, where we live as examples and models of making peace and reconciling so that we can teach our children and train them to grow up in an environment that's different to what we inherited, let's say. So we my wife and I lived for 23 years in intentional Christian community that came out of our involvement in Soweto. It was an interracial community, and we we lived with a number of other families, and our kids were born within this community and were raised, so there were four about 14 children, and we taught our children conflict resolution for healthy relationships so that we live in authentic community and not pseudo-community. And so our son Zunder had a TIFF one day, he was about probably six or seven years old with one of the older other guys, and Zunder felt he was bullying him and he came home crying. So when I listened to his story, I took him by the hand, I said, Let's go talk to Daniel and let's go ask if Daniel's father can be with us. And that's what we did, and we did that frequently. So we sat them down and we said, So Zunder, tell Daniel, and Daniel was about eight years old, how you feel and what happened. And then Daniel tells Zunder what happened. And the two fathers were there, and we coached our two boys to basically understand their feelings of emotions, talk about it to the other guy, and listen to the other guy, and then own what you can own as to what you did in that moment that caused anger and pain. And then eventually we came to a case under what can you apologize for? And then he said, Nothing. And then I had a point that you're but you said this and you said that, and eventually we said, This is how to say I'm sorry. This is how to reconcile and resolve conflict. And we did that frequently in community, so that we had a phrase we said within this Christian community, we said from 1 John chapter 1, verse 4, we said, God is light, and in God there is no darkness. And so if we walk in the light as God is light, then we have no shadow that separates us. And if there's any shadow, we move quickly to remove that shadow and keep relational light between us. That's reconciliation.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:02

That's so so good. Well, I it's been just such an incredible honor to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:11

To just it's like I feel like God's been shaping the same kind of heart in both of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:19

Because, you know, I the only thing we got uh to to show is is Christ and that's the hope of glory.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:28

The old the old ad, the old football ed, you know, the only reason I I use I wear my jersey sometimes when I speak is I get the attention instantly of people that are not in church. Okay. And so it's like uh I use it for bait, you know, I get him to bite the hook and uh to get him to listen. But I just love the man that you are and the pastor. And uh I want to continue this conversation. Maybe we can do a podcast in the future, and you'll be in South Africa. That would be we can pipe you in too the same way.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Open to that, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:10

Yeah, and I want to help you get your books out.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:14

And uh so you have an incredible book on reconciliation.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:19

And tell them the name of that book, and we're gonna put it at the bottom of this podcast so they can go to Amazon and get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

Yeah. So the book is called Doing Reconciliation, and the subtitle is Racism, Reconciliation and Transformation in the Church and in the World.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

And it's actually the story of my twelve years involved in silwetter in the nineteen eighties and and and early nineteen nineties. And then it's a practical laying out of what peacemaking, reconciling really means in practice with the biblical theology behind it. That's the book Doing Reconciliation.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:00

Awesome. Yeah, I'm reading it right now. It's it just grabs you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:04

Because when you when you realize that God has made you to be a peacemaker.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:13

It changes everything. You'll lead more people to Christ. You'll have a better marriage, your children, you'll teach them how to be peacemakers. And boy, we need that today.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

Absolutely.

Blessing Prayer And Final Challenge

SPEAKER_06 1:06:23

So before we get off, would you would you pray for those that are listening? Just a blessing on them. You close the church with an incredible blessing. But uh just uh just to pray for those that are whatever God puts on your heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

I'm honored. Thank you, thank you, Ed, and thank you to all the listeners. So in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, I bless each and every one of you who watch this uh podcast. Jesus, you loved us so much that you came from heaven to earth to give your life that we may be reconciled with the Father. And we honor you, Jesus, and we thank you, Father, for the gift of your Son. And we pray, please, make us just a little bit more like you. By your indwelling Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love from the Father and the Son. Holy Spirit, help us to become a bit more like Jesus. And I pray for each and every person in their life circumstance, in their home situation, in their job, make them peacemakers. Teach them to be at peace with you, Lord, with themselves, with those around them, and with their environment. I bless you. Receive the peace of God in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:50

Amen. Amen. Well, you are just an amazing guy. You're my not my opposite other, you're my brother from another mother. So thank you for watching the Father Difference podcast today. I encourage you to grab this, shoot it everywhere, get those books. He's written a number of books. He's a brilliant writer, and just he just he carries what he preaches. Thank you. He's a man of peace.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Thank you. Bless you, my brother. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Fatherhood Academy Invitation

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

God bless. If you've enjoyed what you've seen and heard today, and you want to know more about how to be the husband and father your family really needs, please go to thefatherdifference.com and click on the Fatherhood Academy and sign up today. It only takes one loving father to change the course of generations and one perfectly heavenly father to begin the process. May God bless you, and we look forward to seeing you in the Fatherhood Academy.